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[BUNKA]

a fatal mistake

" The old method of measuring results in much fewer cells per dm² as the new one introduced by Baudoux. Before Baudoux foundations with about 5 cells per inch were used, which corresponds to about 800 - 830 cells per dm ² according to the old measurement at 5.0 to 4.9 mm. But there was no conversion system and foundation manufacturers , after Baudoux, in the 20s till the 40s, took over the rate of 800 cells/dm ², but applied the new method of measuring. Thus it came to a cell sizes of about 5.4 mm. And apparently no one is aware of this serious error, because the size is maintained to the present day."

"Dee Lusby:

Prof Baudoux was so successful with his writing and his experiments, and so convincing , that manufacturing houses all started selling foundation with enlarged cells and claiming good results for the use of the same. Most of this work was done around the late 1920s through the 1930s and 1940s. (The result has been that this process of bigger is better with its resultant selling has never stopped, and continues up to modern day to the detriment now, that only enlarged oversized foundations (well beyond the bounds of possibility for bigger honeybees as envisioned by Prof Baudoux) are now only sold and standardized large at that, i.e. 5.7cm for 10 worker cells being about the largest)."

Priviti cum eroarea unui om ne urmareste si azi tocmai din 1920...nu pune nimeni la indoiala buna credinta a omului, insa uneori rezultatul poate fi dezastruos.
Cand Varoa a patruns in Europa a gasit o albina inadaptata natural sa lupte cu noua provocare, a gasit un teren propice sa-si faca de cap si sa se inmulteasca peste limitele normale, naturale si sa-si atraga denumirea de Varroa Destructor...pt ca distruge, decimeaza o colonie netratata in maxim 2-3 ani, lasata fara aparare albina in fata acestui dusman este expusa nu numai lui dar si tuturor bolilor conexe.
De unde ar fi putut sti Baudoux la momentul respectiv care vor fi consecintele faptului ca s-a jucat cu un echilibru natural atat de fin?
Nu pun la indoiala buna lui credinta dar din pacate nu a fost Dumnezeu sa creeze ceva perfect..a fost un simplu om care s-a jucat cu lucruri prea serioase.

[BUNKA]

Scriu aici si recunosc, nivelul meu de cunostinte in apicultura este egal cu 0, pentru ca m-am nascut in 79 si nu am de unde sa stiu ce s-a intamplat in ultimii 150 de ani, si daca nu citesc si nu ma informez si sunt ignorant e numai vina mea, la fel ca mine sunt 99,9% din apicultorii de azi, am invatat despre albine doar din carti care nu au tratat aceasta pb, am invatat doar de la bunici, de la prieteni, de la vecini, de la colegii de forum la fel de nestiutori ca mine...cu totii ignoram insa munca unor oameni si dedicatia lor fata de albina cu mult timp inainte de a ne naste noi.
Sa nu uitam niciodata ca apicultura nu a inceput cu noi, suntem majoritatea tributari ai sistemului Dadant care nu l-a confirmat nimeni a fi cel mai bun, dincontra... nu punem noi batul la chibrit si nu am inventat roata...sa fim mai atenti cu inaintasii nostri, si aici ma refer la Warre si Delon, Layens si Voirnot ..sa luam in seama munca de cercetare a sarbului cu Alpine si a altor oameni care chiar si-au adus un aport important in apicultura, si sa nu-i mai privim atat de suspicios pe Perrone si pe Bush, si pe Dee Lusby si altii ca ei.
Atentie la neatentie!!!

[BUNKA]

"Could this continuing trend towards bigger is better be an underlying causative effect creating todays problems of parasitic mites and their accompanying secondary diseases? Probably. But on what evidence would one place such a thought?

Unfortunately for us all, it was not the large cell in itself for which Prof Baudaoux was working, but rather instead for the selection of a better bee. IT IS IMPORTANT FOR TODAY’S BEEKEEPERS TO REMEMBER THE TIME FRAME HERE, AND ITS PLACE IN HISTORY, AND ALSO THE FACT THAT THE MEASUREMENT SYSTEM DEVISED BY PROF BAUDOUX WAS NOT CORRELATED WITH TRADITIONAL MEASUREMENT METHODS. WHY? BECAUSE, AN UNDERLYING CAUSATIVE EFFECT FOR TODAY’S PARASITIC MITE PROBLEMS AND THEIR ACCOMPANYING SECONDARY DISEASES WAS BORN HERE!'

De la greseala lui Baudoux si de la dorinta lui de a crea ceva mai mare si mai bun, mai puternic , a pornit totul...atunci s-a nascut PROBLEMA!

[Mishu05]

Adi..hai sa incercam mai intai ( conform cu schemele /ideile lui Michael Bush, nenea din Argentina,etc) 1-2-3 sezoane si sa vedem ce se intampla si de abia dupa aceea sa tragem niste concluzii. Pana una alta nu e demonstrat nimic 100% asa ca hai sa fim UN PIC sceptici. Pana la urma stiinta si descoperirile au avut la baza munca multa , un gram de optimism si un gram de scepticism.
Daca celula naturala , distanta dintre faguri, alimentatia 100% naturala, forma si dimensiunile lazilor sunt raspunsul la problema varroa si la celelalte probleme ( stres, longevitatea albinei) exista o singura metoda: hai sa testam chestia asta.
Sincer nu cred ca albina europeana este capabila sa reziste la varroa in mod natural fara pierderi de peste 99% din efective. Adica daca in mod natural era introdus parazitul ala din Java in Europa acum 20 000 ani cred ca mureau intr-o majoritate covarsitoare pana cand unele din ele dobandeau o oarecare imunitate si se inmulteau din nou.
Dar na..asta e gandirea mea.
Inca ceva: noi aici facem apicultura si pentru a castiga ceva, financiar. Daca nu pentru painea de zi cu zi ( apicultura ca activitate de baza) macar pentru a putea continua sa ingrijim albinele si la anu ( castigam din apicultura strict pentru a ne mentine stupina in buna ordine de hobby care se auto-sustine, daca vrei).
Hai sa incercam sa facem 2 chestii in paralel pentru a inpaca si capra si varza:
- sa facem experimente felurite sa stam cu urechea, ochii si mai ales mintea in toate directiile pentru a incerca tot ce se poate pentru ca albina sa fie BINE
- sa mentinem totusi un numar de stupi in sistemul traditional ca NU O FI FOC cateva sezoane pentru a avea totusi un castig financiar ( din pacate asa merge lumea asta) care sa ne permitem sa facem apicultura sezon dupa sezon. Asta presupune sa urmam totusi calea traditionala ca pana una-alta s-a dovedit destul de OK, albinele traiesc an de an, apicultorii castiga cate ceva an de an. De acord cu tine ca pe termen lung nu stim cat o sa o mai duca cu tratamente chimice si sistemul asta..dar ce putem face ? Intr-o forma chiar si asa "ne-naturala" trebuie sa mentinem albina macar pentru a avea material biologic pentru experimente naturale..
Din pacate un apicultor normal nu are fonduri la dispozitie in fiecare an sa incerce orice idee noua care ii trece prin cap. Cel putin nu la nivel de zeci de colonii transvzate pe acel sistem nou. Ci doar maxim 5-10 colonii. Si e foarte bine ca e asa ca are timp sa mai lucreze si pe dadant/me/mer ca pana una-alta ACEI STUPI STAS pun painea pe masa.
Fara paine pe masa, discutiile stiintifice sunt doar pierdere de vreme..vreme care ar trebui petrecuta facand ceva ...practic. Ceva care sa ne permita la anu si peste 2-3-4-10 ani sa avem fonduri pentru a face cercetari stiitifice. Adica produse apicole ( in sistem STAS ca asta-i situatia), familii, etc.
Mai zic odata: trebuie incercat si APOI trase concluziile, multe chestii in teorie suna extraordinar si de abia in practica observi "chichite" pe care la nivel de proiect/teorie nu le poti vedea.

[BUNKA]

Un mic amendament in toata treaba asta...nu este doar teorie goala, sunt si puse in practica cu rezultate. Ca nu le cunoastem noi sau majoritatea ...este altceva.
Ca sunt chestii relativ noi la nivel de implementare de catre apicultorii obisnuiti iarasi tin de necunoastere reticenta si rezistenta la schimbare.
Eu nu incerc aici sa-i fac pe toti sa schimbe de maine ceva ci doar sa ia in calcul ideea, si daca se gasesc cativa nebuni dispusi sa testeze, sa fie incurajati sa faca asta pt ca la urma urmei daca 10 apicultori ar avea rezultate in tara eu cred ca adeptii ar aparea destul de repede.
Repet..nu zic sa incerce careva ci doar ca o sa aplic eu toata treaba pe 100 Delon.

[BUNKA]

Albina pare mai mica..nu?

[BUNKA]

Mishu..ti-aduci aminte ca discutam si-mi ziceai ca daca am putea crea un fel de capcana care sa atraga paraziii, ceva de genul unei custi cu un acel ceva in ea care atrage parazitul...e, treaba asta a fost creata dar noi adica oamenii au distrus-o. Daca iei site-ul cap coada si-l citesti intelegi mecanismul.
Trantorii dincolo de rolul lor in imperechere au rolul in mod natural de a atrage asupra lor atacul parazitilor prin marimea larvelor si prin ciclul de dezvoltare si temperatura de clocire lasand puietul de lucratoare in afara acestui pericol. Astfel izolata pb doar pe zona de puiet de trantore albina incepe sa perceapa acest puiet ca avand probleme in comparatie cu cel de albina curat si incep sa curete zona...singure. Fie si numai prin descapacirea simpla albina strica practic un ciclu de inmultire al unei femele de varoa, il intarzie.

"But, the domestic sizes our bees today have ended up on, are quite different and have wrought havoc, as artificial combs have gotten bigger. The stress upon our honeybees caused by being out-of-balance with natural flora has opened Pandora’s box to foulbrood diseases, chalk, and viral infections. By being too big, our domesticated honeybees have taken on parasitic mite infestations as our now pseudo-drones, aka: worker bees, are perceived as a new food source by both Varroa and Tracheal mites. With all this damage being done, we find no teaching anywhere on the history of use of artificial comb foundation sizes in the USA, so our beekeepers can make rational decisions concerning proper usage."

I-auzi..."The various comb cell sizes (706, 711, standard, drone, etc) were originally designed with meaning, which is now forgotten in today’s modern world. No one person or company is to blame in the USA or elsewhere in our world for artificially increasing honeybees so big as to cause disease and parasitic mite problems that now encompass over 135 nations at catastrophic level, placing them in a situation out-of-tune with the reality of Nature. Nothing was hidden and everything was written and published out in the open. " ..deci nimeni nu-i de vina...ne-a luat valul si aia a fost ...ca si cu lada dadant.

A facut un tamplar o lada cu rama mobila si aia a fost, acum folosim aceeasi treaba fara sa ne punem pb de ce...pt ca asa are toata lumea cu mici exceptii, pt ca asa avea bunicul, vecinul, pt ca asa erau foitele facute...bla bla.

"The only thing that has happened is that artificial supposition and an artificial domesticated system of beekeeping has so far prevailed over that found naturally occurring in Nature and has been taught. "
....adica pe romaneste lumea a pus botu` ca daca-i mare albina e de bine!
Si au pus botu` in masa pt ca atunci nu se punea problema varoa sau a distrugerii imunitatii albinei stravechi....nici macar nu le-a trecut prin cap ca s-ar puea intampla asa ceva.

I-auzi..."It began with a simple idea everyone wanted to participate in, i.e. scientists, manufacturing houses. Now through the passing of each successive generation (figure 20 years to each new generation), the growing disparity of size between feral and domestic hives dictates this bigger-is-better trend must be corrected and its underlying causative effects must be brought to light and taught, if beekeeping as we know it is to continue.'

Deci s-au luat dupa o idee...mai mare e mai buna...si ideea a fost PROASTA...acum tre sa renuntam la idee daca pe termen lung vrem sa mai avem albine.

[BUNKA]

"In Belgium, Prof Baudoux measured workers in the range of 5mm to 5.17mm and 5.35mm per cell. (Ordinary drone cells he placed at 5.5mm next to 5mm for worker cells.) Even he found 5.5mm drone cells next to 5mm worker cells to be double in volume of cell contents for food confirming Mullenhoff’s results. When we then consider having today, foundation on the market as large as 5.7mm, it’s not hard to see how it would not be disastrous for beekeepers to use, because of parasitic mite attraction with a pseudo-effect on worker bees perceived as a food source just like that of drones.

Yet, look how much foundation on today’s market is 5.44mm in size (close to the 5.5mm drone size measured by Baudoux).

Wouldn’t this too, also be dangerous for attraction for parasitic mites, causing a pseudo-effect, with mites mistaking worker bees for drones?

JUST HOW BIG THEN, IS TOO BIG?

I would say too big is when a colony of bees starts to become distressed, which leads to stress, which leads to disease, which lets a beekeeper know through visual perception that something is wrong within the hive."

...eu zic ca are sens aceasta argumentatie...e pur si simplu plauzibila, logica!

[BUNKA]

Fratee...treaba asta e chiar tare..cititi aici, e despre roire!
http://www.resistantbees.com/index.php?r=26

[BUNKA]

"But since I have the colonies on Housel arrangement, the bees will not swarm.
It seems they all like it at home."

...e vb despre un anume fel de aranjare a fagurilor care se pare ca le taie cheful de roit, Housel este cel care a descoperit treaba.

[BUNKA]

Alta treaba..
"Advantages of small cells

I’d like to summarize the benefits brought by smaller cells, the way they have been a hundred years ago:


- The incubation period is shortened by one day.
- The bees live longer
- The bees can fly into smaller flowers
- The Varroa is mainly focused on the drone brood
- Nectar and propolis collected is more natural
- VHS hygienic behavior is likely to appear earlier
- The bees are more in harmony with nature"

...restul e aici http://www.resistantbees.com/index.php?r=27

[BUNKA]

Cate ceva despre ceara http://www.resistantbees.com/index.php?r=28

"Another problem is a fatal error that occurred in the foundations that are being sold.

In order to explain I must start further back.

Ed and Dee Lusby (Ed was the Dee’s husband, he sadly passed away recently, Dee sais because of too much stress - I can feel it) started to convert their 1000 colonies to the 5.05mm cell size in the 80s, after intensive study of ancient beekeeping literature. As they work with 4 to 5 boxes the whole year long, they had to change 40.000 frames. Unbelievable! For 2 people! They were so convinced of what they had found in the literature and believed the cells in use were too large for the bees. They had no mould to make the foundations, and were able to convince the owner of the company Dadant who made them a roll of steel, engraved by hand! Pure adventure."
..ignoranta ..mama ei!!...a murit omul schimband sistemul la 1000 de stupi si noi ne vaitam de cateva zeci.

[BUNKA]

"When they had their bees at 5.05 mm, the problem with the Varroa and tracheal mite suddenly disappeared, but other illnesses kept decimating the remaining colonies. They decided to change everything again, now to 4.9 mm and behold, the disease disappeared. And it remained this way until today. Dee now has again nearly 1,000 colonies, without any treatment since over 25 years."

I-auzi tata...de 25 de ani nu mai trateaza si are 1000 de colonii, sotia lui Ed...Dee inca mai traieste si este o legenda vie.

"This means that one and a half tenths of a millimeter helped the bees to defend themselves against the disease. Everything after remained below the 2% threshold."
...ca tot vorbiram de echilibrul finn si sisteme functionale naturale create de Dumnezeu cu reglaj extrem de fin.

[BUNKA]

Cateva chestii importante despre trantori http://www.resistantbees.com/index.php?r=29
Aici sunt chestii de adevarata finete, cum sa inveti albinele sa lupte cu varoa...doar celula mica poate sa nu fie de ajuns..mai multe info pe pagina.

... si ceva despre Acarapis Wodi...parazitul traheei albinei...Another thing is the problem of the tracheal mite, Acarapis woodi.

When I arrived 25 years ago here on the island of La Palma, nearly all the bees perished due to the trachea. Then the beekeepers applied menthol and it went upwards again - until the varroa arrived.

In the bees that hatch of 4.9 mm cells, the foremost part of trachea, or the frontal trachea opening, by which these mites can get into the inside of the bees, is so small that the mites no longer fit through - QED.

Dee Lusbys bees had this problem in the beginning and it disappeared drastically once the cell size was reduced.

[jiji]

sa dea caldura si aranjez si eu ramele asa ca nu am nimic de pierdut si as incerca si asta cu celula de 4,9 dar de unde sa luam fa cu astfel de dimensiuni?
si ca m ai facut curios o sa incerc si tipul ala de stup de 30x30x30 , astea sant dimensiunile interioare nu?

[proapis13]

sa dea caldura si aranjez si eu ramele asa ca nu am nimic de pierdut si as incerca si asta cu celula de 4,9 dar de unde sa luam fa cu astfel de dimensiuni?
si ca m ai facut curios o sa incerc si tipul ala de stup de 30x30x30 , astea sant dimensiunile interioare nu?

Vezi ca gasesti la Swienty
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